Posts by Bona Dea

67

Ozzie's Weekend Poll #17

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

how's the weekend goin'?

been too busy to think on really serious things?

that's good, because this poll doesn't require too much thinking!!

Beneficial : Every dang bit of crap that comes down from headquarters is "beneficial". This has got to be one of the most overused words in my cong. The gathering with others (witnesses, of course) is beneficial, studying our lesson is beneficial, pioneering is beneficial, bringing others to the truth is beneficial, reading our bible with the aid of bible-based literature is beneficial...and so on....

Even when I hear this word used "out of context" --aka-- "outside the realm of the org"...I cringe.

I literally hate this word now

Bona

19

Blood Transfusions and Pedophilia

by Lee Elder in

jw
friends

ajwrb was approached early on about working together on these issues.

we took a hard look and opted out for ethical and pragmatic reasons.

though the issues share a common thread (child abuse), they have to be approached in different ways.

Bona Dea

Hi Lee. I just want to say that you are doing a wonderful job of informing not only the Jehovah's Witness population but others as well.

I, personally and honestly can not see how it could possibly be legal for a JW to refuse a blood transfusion for a minor. It is one thing to refuse it for yourself, another to make that decision for a child. It should be treated as an entirely different circumstance when a parent is likely to put a religious belief before the life or welfare of their child. It seems to me that this should fall under the "child endangerment statute".

Child Endangerment is found in the Penal Code and is entitled as a "Child Endangerment Statute" which is a separate felony. Titled Section 273a, it states:

273a. [a] Any person who, under circumstances or conditions likely to produce great bodily harm or death, willfully causes or permits any child to suffer, or inflicts thereon unjustifiable physical pain or mental suffering, or having the care and custody of any child, willfully causes or permits the person or health of that child to be injured, or willfully causes or permits that child to be placed in a situation where his or her person or health is endangered, shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or in the state prison for two, four, or six years.
[b] Any person who, under circumstances or conditions other than those likely to produce great bodily harm or death, willfully causes or permits any child to suffer, or inflicts thereon unjustifiable physical pain or mental suffering, or having the care or custody of any child, willfully causes or permits the person or health of that child to be injured, or willfully causes of permits that child to be placed in a situation where his or her person or health may be endangered, is guilty of a misdemeanor . . .
*Within each state it is the legislature who decides how the child endangerment statute is applied.
*Georgia is the only state in the nation without felony child endangerment statute. (information provided: http://www.marktaylor.com/families.html ).
Child abuse or neglect is defined in Black's Law Dictionary as:
When a child's parent or custodian, by reason of cruelty, mental incapacity, immorality or depravity, is unfit to properly care for him or her, or neglects or refuses to provide necessary physical, affectional, medical, surgical or institutional care for him or her or is under such improper care or control as to endanger his or her morals or health.

(Information provided: http://www.madd.org/activism/0,1056,4210,00.html)

Religion aside, this is downright cruelty. This is abuse.

If we were speaking of "consenting adults" that would be one thing...but these are kids, minors...who are trusting their parents to make the best decision for their well being. I would feel the same way regarding ANY religion that would endanger the welfare of a child by not allowing adequate medical treatment because of the religious preferences of the parents. I think when the life of a child is involved and there is choice between the welfare of a child and the parents "right" to enforce their religious convictions, the child's life should ALWAYS take precedence.

It's funny. I live in Ga (notice above we are the ONLY state that has no felony child endangerment statute). And where I live, you hear of parents who won't even allow their kids to go to the doctor because of "their" religious preferences. Kids who die from a simple cold, or from an untreated, infected sore. People think that is cruel. I ask, what is the difference between what they are doing and what the witnesses do?

It is amazing...there is a much stronger link between the subject of Pedophilia and the denial of blood transfusions to a minor than would immediately meet the eye. BOTH are abuse, both affect the welfare and the very LIVES of millions of children in a <6 million and growing> organization. I applaud the work of AJWRB and Silent Lambs.

Bona

Edited by - Bona Dea on 25 August 2002 11:38:57.....I CAN'T SEEM TO GET THE RED OUT

Edited by - Bona Dea on 25 August 2002 11:40:35

34

A Return to the Basics - Part I

by Farkel in

every so often we get so stuck with specifics and the latest wt scandals or doctrinal nuances that it's good to get back to the basics.

that is the purpose of this thread.

i cannot count the times that, when dubs arguments are demolished with quotes from their own literature and practices, they resort to this statement in sheer desperation: well, at least weve got the basics right.

Bona Dea

Thanks Farkel!!! Just so you know, I didn't doubt you...it's just my husband is still in dubdom and he wouldn't just believe me if I showed it to him without any proof.

(Pretty scary stuff, huh?)

...my thoughts exactly...

Thanks a bunch!

Bona

34

A Return to the Basics - Part I

by Farkel in

every so often we get so stuck with specifics and the latest wt scandals or doctrinal nuances that it's good to get back to the basics.

that is the purpose of this thread.

i cannot count the times that, when dubs arguments are demolished with quotes from their own literature and practices, they resort to this statement in sheer desperation: well, at least weve got the basics right.

Bona Dea

Hey Farkel,

Great points. I liked it so much I copied it into a word file (is that ok?). I'd like to show it to my husband. One question...you wouldn't know which specific article from the 50's so that I would have some sort of point of reference instead of just "Farkel says it was there". There has to be proof that it was said or my husband will just disregard it. If it wouldn't be too much trouble could you locate that particular article. I would really appreciate it.

Thanks

Bona

6

Quick question: Do JW children get blood cards?

by Bona Dea in

jw
friends

just curious.

i'm not a jw, so, i didn't know.

i know they pass them out at the kh....but do the children get one too....and are they required to sign them and keep them with them???.

Bona Dea

Thanks for the info, Cassiline.

Actually, I'm in a debate on another forum right now. The issue up for debate is:

"Should the government (local and national) have the right to tell you how to worship?"

The author of the thread begins by stating:

Let's say you practice Voodoo, or Voudon. Or one of the religions in the islands. And, as part of the ceremony, you sacrifice animals. Should the government, either local, or national be able to tell you you cannot do the sacrifice?

How about Muslims who perform "female" circumcision on small children? It is painful, and potentially dangerous. Does the government have the right to tell them they cannot circumse their kids?

How about Scientologists, who force their kids to purge (vomit) once a week to "purify" themselves?

We might find these behaviors repulsive, but they are legitimate religious actions.

A Christian, performing ritualistic Cannibilism by consuming Jesus's flesh & blood might be repulsive to other religions.

So, understand, if you regulate one religion (and it's beliefs) you have to regulate them all.

Say, a Witch wants to worship naked, can the law say no? Sould it say no?

What do you guys think?

I think the government (local & national) should stay out of our buisness.

Of course, the issue of "ritualistic cannibilism" was debated but some other interesting comments were made that got me thinking. Here are some of the comments:

Female 'circumcision" or MUTILATION is barbaric; it is very abhorrant and just plain evil as far as I am concerned. To perform 'surgeries' on innocent children is an outrage and most definitely should be punishable by law. The witholding of food, or medical treatment ; when the child's life is in danger should be governed by laws of the state. Whenever ANYONE's life is in danger; it doesn't matter what religion it is; then that is when the Law should step in and take over. Other than that; you can worship naked as a jay bird and howl at the moon if you wish....whatever...and it is ok

You see, there is a line...the government cannot stop you from practicing your religion-but they can stop you from practicing the parts that violate federal law. This would include murder, rape, child endangerment, and most drug use. Dancing naked, however, does not violate federal law, and for the most part neither does some animal sacrifice. That is how the Supreme Court has ruled...Child endangerment includes, but is not limited to: withholding treatment for illnesses; forcing your kid to purge; sexual abuse; displaying of nudity; placing a child in a situation where their lives may be in danger-hence child endangerment. If you wanted to debate the definition of what child endangerment is you should have made the post about that. In general terms, a group of consenting adults-which I naturally thought you were talking about, as I did include child endangerment as a taboo of the federal government-is not a crime on private property out of view of the public eye. Child endangerment is a case in itself-you imply in your post that we are debating when the government can or cannot intervene.

So, this is why I am asking about their blood policies regarding children.

Should parents have legal rights to deny their children blood? Is it legal? If it isn't, shouldn't it be?

If I choose to not accept a blood transfusion, that is one thing...when I make that choice for my child, that is something entirely different. I think when the life of a child is involved and there is a choice between the welfare of a child and the parents "right" to enforce their religious convictions, the child's life should ALWAYS take precedence. What do you think?

The original debate can be found here: http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm286402.html

6

Quick question: Do JW children get blood cards?

by Bona Dea in

jw
friends

just curious.

i'm not a jw, so, i didn't know.

i know they pass them out at the kh....but do the children get one too....and are they required to sign them and keep them with them???.

Bona Dea

Thanks Pistoff!!

6

Quick question: Do JW children get blood cards?

by Bona Dea in

jw
friends

just curious.

i'm not a jw, so, i didn't know.

i know they pass them out at the kh....but do the children get one too....and are they required to sign them and keep them with them???.

Bona Dea

Come on...surely someone must know the answer

I would really like to know. If it's so, then I have to say this is just plain wrong. You would think that the Gov't wouldn't allow it...or do they (I'm in the US)? Wouldn't this be considered an indirect act of child abuse?? Not allowing your child necessary treatment in order to sustain or save his/her life. Forcing your child to sign a blood contract that would require them to deny the use of blood. Is it just me, or isn't this a form of cruelty?

bona

6

Quick question: Do JW children get blood cards?

by Bona Dea in

jw
friends

just curious.

i'm not a jw, so, i didn't know.

i know they pass them out at the kh....but do the children get one too....and are they required to sign them and keep them with them???.

Bona Dea

Just curious.

I'm not a JW, so, I didn't know. I know they pass them out at the KH....but do the children get one too....and are they required to sign them and keep them with them???

Thanks in advance...bona

42

Before you open that door....

by Bona Dea in

things that you definitely will not learn upfront: (and again, this is just a few...).

fight against independent thinking.

6-8-1986, page.9 would that all were prophets!.

Bona Dea

Bleep - If you call your planet Earth I would have to say yes. The Bible does not say that we have more planets like Earth in the Galaxy.

Me - Your bible also says that the Earth is the center of the universe.

Bleep - It is up to them if they want to be Jehovah's Witnesses. Before a person can qualify to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses, he must meet Scriptural qualifications. Elders exercise care in determining if a potential Witness truly understands the implications of Christian dedication. Does he really want to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses? Is he willing to live up to what this entails? If not, he is ineligible for baptism.

Me - Um, my KIDS are 6 and 4. No, I have no desire for them to become witnesses. If, however, once they are adults and either of them chose to become JWs, I will support and respect any choice they make regarding religion. And until then, I will do everything in my power to educate them of the beliefs of (not only the JWs) but every other denomination/branch off of Christianity and other religions of the world that I can. And I would say, at this point in their lives they're definitely ineligible for baptism.

Bleep - I have shown proof that the Elders do not hide the crime of Child Abuse.

Me - And Bill Bowen, Barbara Anderson, the Pandelos, and all the other VICTIMS and THEIR supporters have shown that they DO!

Edited by - Bona Dea on 1 August 2002 20:43:25

3

before you open that door...REVISED...

by Bona Dea in

i posted this once before but it was incredibly long.

this is the revised version.

it is a flyer that explains a little bit to unsuspecting householders about the beliefs of the jws.

Bona Dea

ok...tried to fix but I couldn't. If you want to copy it, just make sure that only the topic headings are underlined. Actually, just format it anyway that suits you.

Bona